Ducks Unlimited Podcast

In this episode of the Ducks Unlimited podcast, host John Gordon sits down with Ray Voigt, former professional retriever trainer and current Purina senior specialist, and Karl Gunzer, Purina Sporting Dog Group Director, discussing all things dogs. They talk about their love for sporting breeds, canine nutrition, training tips, and the Bird Dog Hall of Fame. If you're a dog lover, this episode is a must-listen as they dive into the history and importance of sporting dogs.
 
Listen now: www.ducks.org/DUPodcast
Send feedback: DUPodcast@ducks.org

SPONSORS:
Purina Pro Plan: The official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited
Whether you're a seasoned hunter or just getting started, this episode is packed with valuable insights into the world of waterfowl hunting and conservation.

Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails:
Whether you’re winding down with your best friend, or celebrating with your favorite crew, Bird Dog brings award-winning flavor to every moment. Enjoy responsibly.

Creators and Guests

Writer
John Gordon
DUPodcast Contributor

What is Ducks Unlimited Podcast?

Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.

VO:

Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, Reloaded, where we bring you the best of our past episodes. Whether you're a seasoned waterfowler or curious about conservation, this series is for you. Over the years, we've had incredible guests and discussions about everything from wetland conservation to the latest waterfowl research and hunting strategies. In Reloaded, we're revisiting those conversations to keep the passion alive and the mission strong. So sit back, relax, and enjoy this reload.

John Gordon:

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, John Gordon, and this is a episode that when I first heard that I was gonna be to host it, I got really excited about it because anybody who's listened to a lot of my podcasts in the past knows that I'm a dog guy. Right? Specifically sporting dogs.

John Gordon:

Sporting breeds, spaniels, retrievers, I love them all. So to have an opportunity to sit down with these two gentlemen and talk about dogs was was very intriguing to me and exciting because my guests today are Ray Voigt. He's a senior specialist. He covers retrievers, spaniels, the herding breeds, And Carl Gunzer, who's director of the sporting dog group for Purina. Guys, welcome to the DU podcast.

Karl Gunzer:

Thanks, John. Good to be here.

Ray Voigt:

Thanks for having us.

John Gordon:

And, well, folks, the reason these guys are in town is what we're gonna talk about first, is that they're here for the National Birddog Championship, which is, I mean, really, what, 45 from here at Ames Plantation, maybe thirty minutes from here at National Headquarters at DU. And they're here to participate in a lot of stuff and and really have an influence from the Purina side, and y'all sponsor quite a bit

Karl Gunzer:

of it. Right? Yeah. This is a big weekend in in Grand Junction. So the the Hall of Fame, the Bird Dog Hall of Fame is in Grand Junction.

Karl Gunzer:

There's a museum there, and on Saturday, tomorrow, are the inductions in the Hall of Fame for all of the different segments there. So there's spaniels, retrievers, pointers, pointing breeds. So every year, they do the inductions for the Hall of Fame. And then on Monday starts the national championship at Ames, which is right there in Grand Junction, like you said, forty five minutes from here.

John Gordon:

That's right. And if anyone listening here that that would that loves dogs and loves the sporting dogs, the Hall of Fame is it's for me is

Karl Gunzer:

a must see. I mean, there's more history in that place about the different breeds and the different dogs, and really, you know, tribute to those great animals of the past, so you've really gotta check it out. It's really neat. There's different wings for different breeds, and so if you're into you know, spaniels, there's a section there with, you know, springers and cockers. There's a section with, you know, NAFTA and NAFTA, National Shoot Retrieve, and all have sections and wings where they honor different dogs.

Karl Gunzer:

And then like all age bird dogs, shooting dogs, so a little of everything. Retrievers, there's a nice retriever wing. So, it's neat, and there's lots of memorabilia from different nationals, from all of the different segments. And and I forgot to mention, you know, Ray's here, he's in early this week because there's actually a Springer Spaniel trial held on grounds here as well. Where is that at, Ray?

Ray Voigt:

Actually just right outside of Grand Junction, probably five minutes from the from the Hall Of Fame itself. That started on Wednesday, we'll finish up tomorrow afternoon after the inductions. So four day trial, they have two opens, two amateurs and this year they actually included they had cocker trial as well. So, you know, nice a big event, they had big entries and they had a banquet last night that I was at, and really well done and a great trial.

John Gordon:

What are the main differences really between what the spaniels have to do compared to the retrievers as far as traveling goes?

Ray Voigt:

Oh, I mean, it's really two completely different skill sets. I mean, the the spaniels are of, you know, quartering flushing, so they're judged a lot on on their hunt pattern, how well they can smell birds, how well they flush the birds, their steadiness, and then the retrieving part. So they're actually it'd be like a day in the field, you're out walking, the dog's quartering, you have a brace mate, you have to keep keep the dog in control on your side of the course, flush a bird, be steady to wing and wing and shot both for yours and the your brace mate. So if the brace mate puts up a bird in the shot, your dog has to honor, well, it makes the other dog makes a retrieve. So you're working in tandem there and it's it's really just like you were out on a in the field, in a normal days pheasant hunt.

Ray Voigt:

And then the retrievers is more like you're duck hunting, so your dog is at your side, it's watching marks go down or or you're handling to a blind that where you know where the bird is, but the dog doesn't and it's more about marking natural marking ability of the dog and their ability to navigate land and water and, you know, so so it's quite different, but they both are extremely fun and I really that's one thing I've enjoyed since I started started this position is getting to get into see a few different venues.

Karl Gunzer:

We're trying to get ready to get a a Springer. Start competing with

John Gordon:

springer That's right, man. You gotta, you know, you well, for folks if you don't know the name Ray Voigt in the world of retrievers, Ray is is one of the most accomplished trainers on the field trial side, you know. You how many field champions did you work with, Ray?

Ray Voigt:

A little over 50 in the eighteen or no, fourteen years that I did it. So a little over 50, we had four national champions, 40 national finalists and this weekend, one of the retrievers getting inducted is was a dog that we had and that makes six dogs that I've had the opportunity to work with that are now in the hall of fame.

John Gordon:

That's that's incredible, man. That you mean, just that alone, you you gotta be very proud of that, you know, going to the hall and you can walk in there and and see dogs that you know very well.

Ray Voigt:

Oh, I mean, it is. It's very humbling. It's a great place. Anybody that that has that does anything with the on the sporting side or, know, field trials, like Carl said, for any breed, it's, you know, it's a must see thing and you walk in there and it's you see some of the dogs that you always read about when you were starting to learn the sport and then now fortunate enough to have worked with some of them and you know a lot of the people in there, and it it's a pretty emotional place for for a lot of people.

John Gordon:

Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. I'm gonna head out there and check it out as well. I really I'm looking forward to the inductions and everything and really seeing the whole, you know, pageantry and acceptance speeches and everything, you know, around it.

John Gordon:

It's a hall of fame just like anything else, you know, pro football, baseball. I mean, these dogs are the top dogs of all time. So it's it's really a special place, you know. And we were, you know, starting out here talking about the performance events. You've got basically, you've got two different categories, you know, field trialing and then hunt testing.

John Gordon:

Hunt testing, I know, has become, you know, a really big thing, and it's a lot younger than the field trial. Mean, the field trialing really in this country started in the, I believe, the early nineteen thirties, whereas I don't think the hunt test began until the mid nineteen eighties. From a purina standpoint, I mean, how important are these performance events and and and the performance dog to what to what y'all do?

Karl Gunzer:

Well, for what Ray and I do, it's it is what we do, right? It's supporting these events and trying to to help provide, you know, great nutrition for these dogs that are working hard. And so, you know, Purina, kind of the philosophy of Purina is people and pets are better together, and we try and promote things that cause people to do something with their dogs. So whether it's, you know, a confirmation dog show, if that's what you're into, or a agility event or in our case, you know, sporting dog events, you know, retrievers, spaniels, pointing breeds, herding breeds. So it's been great.

Karl Gunzer:

You know, the field trials are a great venue and, you know, they're kind of the the ultimate tests for the dog, but they've gotten so difficult that it's hard for, you know, a lot of average people to train their own dog to compete. You know, if if you're competing against people that are are, you know, training in the North in the in the summer and they go south for the winter and and have the best grounds and, you know, good training and the best genetics, it's hard for an average guy to go compete. It can be done. There's lots of great amateurs that train their own dogs, but it takes time and generally money to do it. Where the hunt tests have been created, so they're judged against a standard that gives a person a little more of an ability to do something with a dog, train to a high level, but not have to just try and and beat the other 100 dogs at the event that day.

Karl Gunzer:

You know, you can go have fun with a dog and and really enjoy the dog, and and there's lots of crossover. I've seen a lot of people that start in the hunt test program that then start field trialing or vice versa. There's people that, you know, run trials and then say, you know what? I'm going to put a a hunt test title on my dog or run the hunt test or try and qualify for the master national or run the super retriever series. So there's now quite a few different testing venues for dogs.

Karl Gunzer:

There's really only one field trial venue, that's the AKC field trial. So if you really hear the word field champion, that is specific to an AKC field trial title. But there's lots of master hunters, grand hunting retriever champions, SRS champions, and different ways that you can earn titles that are not competitive one dog against the next.

John Gordon:

Exactly. Exactly that. For folks that, like I said, don't know, that's it. The field trial, you got a 100 dogs pitted against each other or more, And what is it? There's basically three places that that actually score points, and that's it.

John Gordon:

You know? And you've got a winner. Four, but yeah.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. Four. Two, three, four. Yep. Yep.

John Gordon:

And that's it. And that's all people that get points in the entire trial. So it's it's gotta be pretty intense. I mean, Ray, you've been at the line at at many of them. There's gotta be a fine line between winning and losing.

Ray Voigt:

Oh, definitely. I mean, the the competition and the the I think that the dogs, the genetics, the the training techniques have evolved so much that the, you know, as less ten, fifteen years ago, you know, you'd go and there was, you know, maybe a handful or 20 dogs that you knew really had a shot and now it's almost all of them are capable of winning, you know, given the right circumstances. So the margin for error is extremely low from from, you know, first to fourth and even just finishing without a placement. I mean, that's the the gap has is really small, you know, and it's it's hard it's hard to do and hard to compete consistently.

John Gordon:

Right. And for a dog to be a field champion, they have to win an event. There's got there's got to be a lot of great dogs in history who never won, so they never got the title.

Karl Gunzer:

Yep. You know? Win in points. So a win in a total of 10 points for a field champion or 15 for the amateur field champion. And, you know, we used to Ray and I used to pre national together all the time when he worked for Mike, Mike Lardy, he would equate the tests and and the whole thing to like an arms race.

Karl Gunzer:

He's like, you know, the the dogs get better and then the judges get tougher and make it harder, and then the the dogs get better and everything just kept elevating, you know, and the whole the whole thing just got more and more challenging.

John Gordon:

Exactly. It's the it's the ultimate level with retrievers. I mean, I've never run field trials, just only hunt tests, but you've got a lot of dogs that are really skilled at the hunt test level. It just I think there seems to me the real separator is the ability to mark birds at extreme distances. Seems like the field trial dogs are just geared for that particular skill in a way that the hunt test dog can't match.

Ray Voigt:

Well, think there's a lot of hunt I mean, a lot of it is the venue that you choose to play with the dog. So there are there are a lot of hunt test dogs that I think if they had been trained specifically for field trials, they could they certainly have the genetics and the the desire to to have played that game.

John Gordon:

I mean, what do you think the main differences are? Does a lot of it just depend on how which path was chosen for the dog in the first place?

Ray Voigt:

Well, think part of it the path I mean, there is some different some of the the genetics and the breeding are different from field trial to hunt test, but a lot of the there's always a myth that the field trial dogs are too high strung. They're not you know, they're just living in kennel. All they do is run field trials and I think that's completely wrong. I mean, just about every dog that we that I've ever trained was a house dog. A lot of them went hunting, they did the things that everybody always used to say field trial dogs couldn't do.

Ray Voigt:

And if you look through a lot of pedigrees, most of the dogs running hunt tests are have field trial backgrounds. Exactly. You know, have field trial parents or grandparents, and so I think a lot of it is the the path that people chose or choose, and there are some examples where there may be some dogs that are running that just weren't gonna be able to to be a high caliber field trial dog and they're more suited for the hunt test game, which is the shorter distances and, you know, it does take a a dog with something deep down to look out there across the lake and make a 300 yard swim that not just not every dog has. So, you know, so all those things come into play, but there's a lot of them that could be competitive if if, you know, people took that route.

John Gordon:

And I there have been some dogs in the history, I believe, who who excelled at both, but I think they were field trial dogs first and then they transitioned into hunt tests. I think it'd be pretty tough to go the other way.

Karl Gunzer:

It's it's easier to go from field trials to hunt tests than from hunt tests to field trials just because of, you know, ingrained distances, and really a lot of it to me is working with you on the line. You know, a field trial dog is really taught to move with you on the line to look at, you know, look from this gun to that gun. You know, the guns, for those that don't know, the gunners at a field trial are in white, so they're visible. You can pick them out, and that that some people might say is an advantage, but it can also make it harder. You know, when you have one that's longer and it's standing out in white and then there's the short bird is retired, there's nothing for the dog to see or vice versa.

Karl Gunzer:

So, you know, those the field trial dogs are really taught a lot of working with you online from moving from one gun to the next, picking them out, where the hunt test dogs are more either swing with the gun or cue in on the sound because there's generally a sound given before the bird is thrown, whether it's a duck call or a a popper gun or something. So so that's one big difference, but they can all a field trial dog can learn to swing with a gun or move swing their head to a a sound, and a hunt test dog can learn to pick out white coats and and work with them. They just need to be trained.

John Gordon:

Sure. Sure. And I would include encourage anybody listeners out there, you can see all of this, you know, online. You you can see field trials and hunt tests and see the differences in it. A lot of it's distance.

John Gordon:

You know, field trials, you're you're talking several 100 yards and a lot of the marks and blinds. And then, you know, it's just it's kept within, usually within a 150 or so in most of the hunt tests I've been to. It used to be a 100 yard standard, and I think they extended that.

Ray Voigt:

Yes. I believe it's, I think, a 150 now, and in the HRC, I think it can even be up to a 175.

John Gordon:

I gotcha. And once again, folks, for y'all don't know, in the Hunt Test game, there's mainly two main clubs, the HRC, which is run by the UKC club, then the AKC. So you've got two different title sets, you know, HRCH, CH hunting retriever champion as being the top title. Well, grand hunting retriever champion on the HRC side, AKC, the master hunter, and then master national retriever. So the national events have become a big deal, and I know y'all are, you know, heavily involved.

Ray Voigt:

Oh, yeah. The Master National last year down in Thomasville, Georgia had, I think, 1,220 entries. That's crazy, Which was the largest field event in AKC history, and the grand the two grands last the the h r the hunting retriever club has a spring grand and a fall grand, and they were both in, I believe, entries in the 900. So I would be the spring grand this year is is down in Georgia and I would not be surprised to see it hit a thousand for the first time.

John Gordon:

Man, that that from when the time when I was just a kid coming out of college and and got involved in our first club where we may have had man, I don't think we hit a 100 dogs in Master most of the time on our chest to now to where every, you know, event is is just you can't get in. It's just packed out.

Ray Voigt:

Now they've limited the entries because it became so popular. The clubs didn't have the grounds or the help to support that many dogs running in one one stake, so they limit the master entries and there's multiple tests every weekend, now they're doing tests midweek to try to accommodate because some of those tests will fill up in a matter of less than minutes, you know, I mean, it's the entries open at a certain time and it's a lot of them are some of them have been full in, you know, forty five seconds.

John Gordon:

Exactly. You see, you gotta have a gift just about how to get in to a test these days,

Karl Gunzer:

especially Yeah. They got strategies, all the pros all have a strategy one to click.

Ray Voigt:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have 60, you know, if it's limited to 66 dogs and one person has 20 that they're trying to get in, you know, it's makes it interesting.

John Gordon:

And, you know, I know that on the Master National side of things, there's talk about, you know, making it harder to get in because there's so many dogs qualified, right, that they're talking about having a qualifying event to qualify for the Master National versus just the test, you know, getting a dog in. So it just shows you the growth of this has just been exploded in the last five years.

Ray Voigt:

Yeah. I think the the qualifying event kinda got voted down last year, but there's they've had several proposals from, you know, like you said, the the qualifying event, they've talked about splitting it geographically east and west, and actually hosting two to try to lower the numbers, you know, they're kicking around some different ideas and I don't I don't think anything at this point has been settled, but it's really hard to find grounds that can host not only that number of, you know, we had nine flights last fall down in Georgia, so to have grounds that have nine separate areas that you can basically do a whole master within driving distance of each other, there's not many places in the country that can do that and logistically, hotels, restaurants, that amount that influx of people that come in for those, you know, judges were here for almost three weeks last year or were there for almost three weeks. So places with the infrastructure to host that amount of people coming in and the grounds are, you know, few.

John Gordon:

That's a that's a great point that especially with the retrievers, well, with spaniels, bird dogs, all of it. It it takes a lot of land to be able to really test a dog and its abilities. And it's the right ground, especially from the retriever side. Once again, folks, y'all can look this up, but the the requirements of dogs to take straight lines and fight factors, which becomes points, get on the point, not on the point, off, you know, on the land, whatever. That that's a that's a special pond that has to be built for that.

John Gordon:

And and, you know,

Karl Gunzer:

there's the same issue with the with the pointing breed trials, you know, like this national here going on at Ames. I'm not sure the total number of acres here at Ames, but you know, they they run a three hour brace, one, a three hour brace in the morning, three hour in the afternoon, so those dogs are on the ground for three hours. They cover a lot of ground. Now that's maybe, there's not many or any trials other than this that are a three hour breaks, but there's lots of one hour, and then they can give callbacks for, you know, hour and a half or two, and it takes a big piece of property to run a horseback, all age bird dog or a shooting dog, you know, on a course, and it's hard, you know, it's getting more and more difficult to do that on public properties. So, you know, thankfully there's a lot of landowners that, you know, have an interest in bird dogs and or retrievers both that develop properties, but it is it is a challenge.

John Gordon:

Exactly. Exactly. And that another you bring up a great point there, Carl, about we were talking about nutrition and everything before. These these pointing dogs, the setters, English pointers, English setters, you know, different breeds. But those dogs in a three hour brace are their stamina is tested to the absolute maximum.

John Gordon:

Right? And if they don't have the fuel inside of them to get through it, they're just gonna it's not they're not gonna make it.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. Conditioning is a huge part in in the bird dog world. I I think, you know, it's it's interesting. We've seen conditioning, and really, you know, Mike and Ray, with the help of, you know, Doctor. Janelle and others really sort of brought conditioning, I'd say, the forefront of retriever training and realized that that could be a competitive advantage.

Karl Gunzer:

In the bird dog world, it's always been known that conditioning is a big part because once they're hot and, you know, breathing too much through their mouth and just get they just can't smell as well anymore. So, so, you know, we always sort of say it's sort of a three period three sided pyramid, you know, genetics, training, and nutrition. It takes all of those things and, you know, genetically some dogs have are going to be smoother runners, are going to be built better to run, so I think genetics is a huge part. Training is a huge part and conditioning, and then nutrition's the third piece, is that they have to have the calories and a high fat diet to be able to run and still perform for that amount of time.

John Gordon:

Just like an athlete, I remember Michael Phelps talking about the fact that he had to consume upwards of 10,000 calories a day when he was in training. Right? Otherwise, he he would have been a stick man. He he couldn't, you know, he couldn't compete at the highest level without the nutritional standpoint, and that's And Purina's done a fantastic job, especially in the Pro Plan brand, which started in the eighties. And now I was just looking at the site and all the different types of formulas that y'all have, it's just unbelievable, and the way you've really been able to pinpoint specific needs for dogs is unbelievable.

John Gordon:

Yeah. And, you know, in the in sort

Karl Gunzer:

of the general population pet world, one of the biggest problems is obesity. I mean, sixty percent of the dogs that walk into a veterinary practice are probably obese. You get into the sporting world, especially the bird dog world, that's not a problem. I mean, these dogs run hard enough and they burn enough calories, you have the opposite problem. You need a high fat, high protein diet just to help the dogs perform.

Karl Gunzer:

They got to get the calories, and that's so Purina or so Proplan and Purina have various formulas with different caloric densities, so if you if you're going to run a bird dog like we're talking about, you you probably want a thirty twenty higher protein and fat formula with more calories. If, you know, it's a spayed dog that's an occasional weekend hunter, you know, you're probably better off on a adult maintenance type formula. But, know, the real way to look at it is, you know, you look at the body condition of the dog and, you know, it should be there's a there's a body condition score chart, and you can look at that and kind of determine where your dog fits into it, and then you help then you choose your formula based on the body weight of the

John Gordon:

dog and and what they're expected to do. What part do allergies play into it? Because I know a lot of dogs have got issues with different things. Right? They they really can't tolerate this or that and the other.

Karl Gunzer:

So I'm not gonna say that's a not a correct notion, but dogs are much more likely to be allergic to environmental things than they are a food protein or or, you know, you always hear about corn, wheat, and soy and those things, and certainly dogs can be allergic to those. The they're much more likely to be allergic to a protein than a carbohydrate, so more often it's, you know, beef or chicken or salmon or whatever it is, protein source that they're allergic to than it is the carbohydrate, but they can be allergic to any of those. More likely than any of those is probably just like a lot of us. I mean, if you think about the number of people that you know that have a food allergy versus an environmental allergy like hay fever or something

John Gordon:

like that. Dust, right?

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah, dust, right? And it's the same for the dogs. They're much more likely to have an environmental allergy, but there's different foods that either are limited ingredient formulas. There's a hypoallergenic formula, so you can really figure out if it truly is a food allergy. So you feed a dog this this hypoallergenic formula and see if the dog is still itching or having problems.

Karl Gunzer:

If it is, then it's you you kind of know it's an environmental allergy, and it takes there's some tests that can be done, but really it's it's difficult to diagnose allergies in dogs and skin conditions. It really is kind of a trial and error and people really need to to write down, you know, when it's happening, what's happening, what they're seeing for symptoms, and then try to identify commonalities like, oh, okay, wait a minute, it's every, you know, it's every September he seems to itch a lot. Well, what's happening in September? Well, you know, trees are pollinating or whatever that is, or maybe it's a grass poll in the spring or so. It's tough.

John Gordon:

Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, folks, we're gonna take a little break right there, and stay tuned. We'll be back pretty soon with the Ducks Unlimited podcast.

VO:

Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan after these messages.

John Gordon:

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. My guests today are two of the top sporting dog nutrition guys in the country, and they and they both work for Purina, Carl Gunzer and Ray Voigt. Ray, this question is for you. We were just talking about, you know, performance dogs and what kind of nutritional needs they have from a trainer standpoint.

John Gordon:

Did y'all have a specific regimen that you built up to prior to a trial or was it just you you had a pretty regular maintenance program the entire deal? How did how did that work?

Ray Voigt:

Nutritionally, we didn't tend to change things a lot before trials. I mean, we wanted to kind of practice the same way you play, so it wasn't like they would get different amounts or things like that. They were, you know, all the dogs were a little different, so some some might be on three cups, some might be on four cups. I never really had to worry about the food doing its job, water balance was a big issue, you know, was a big concern, you wanna make sure the dogs were well hydrated, you know, at events, if it was hot out, things like that. But, you know, from a from a feeding standpoint, things didn't didn't really change from day to day to weekends to events, you know.

Ray Voigt:

If you knew you were going into a cold weather national, maybe you would try to have the have a couple extra pounds on the dog and have a better coat on them versus going into a warm weather national where you're gonna have them a little thinner and and not not want that heavy undercoat, you know, things like that. But from a feeding standpoint, things pretty pretty will stay the same based on what that dog needed day to day.

John Gordon:

I gotcha. I gotcha. And, well, y'all had a very good feel, your finger on the pulse of what they needed. Working with those dogs every single day on their nutritional needs, I'm sure it's you know, from a trainer standpoint, that's gotta be a real concern.

Ray Voigt:

Oh, I mean, when it comes to the crunch time, that's the last thing you wanna worry about is, you know, are they gonna run out of gas because they don't have the proper nutrition? Are they are they running too much and we can't keep weight on them anymore? Or I mean, know, like Carl mentioned earlier about as they get warmer, they don't smell as good, so the conditioning part of it and I mean, there's so there's so many so many things that go into it, but knowing that you have a good quality food that they're gonna thrive on is was always nice to have in the back of your head, you didn't have to worry about that, and then you could do all the other things that would try to give you that little bit of advantage, you know, with the hydration and the conditioning and those sorts of things.

John Gordon:

Purina is the dominant brand in in the performance sporting dog world. I mean, that's the truth, am I correct?

Karl Gunzer:

Well, you know, Pro Plan more champion dogs, you know, feed Pro Plan than any other formula. There's there's lots of great formulas around. I think Pro Plan has has supported the events and segments, whether it's bird dogs, retrievers for a long time, and I think people have just like, you know, Ray and others and myself before I came to work for Purina, we realized it was a good food, the company helped support the industry that we loved, and there really was no better option, so I think you'll see the majority of people that compete are feeding Pro Plan. I think, you know, the Bird Dog National here in a couple days, I'm not sure exactly the number, but we were looking at it and I think out of 30 ish dogs, and there might be a couple of scratches, but like 28 or 29 of the 30 feed pro plan. So it's pretty overwhelming, the support.

John Gordon:

Well, as you say, the proof's in the pudding there. You've you've got 28 dogs out of 29 on on pro plan. It's that that that speaks for itself. Right. From a science standpoint, how from r and d, I know Purina has got to spend an incredible amount of time and resources developing these foods.

John Gordon:

I mean, let's just like Pro Plan Performance, the thirty twenty plan, how long did it take y'all to really come up with a magic formula for that?

Karl Gunzer:

You know, that's a good question, and that happened, you know, before I was with the company. But I know, you know, doctor Arlie Reynolds from Alaska played a big part in creating, developing that formula, and Arlie was a a sled dog, a musher sled dog racer. I think he won three world champion sprint races, think, and helped condition dogs for a bunch of others. You know, one of the things I love about Purina is the science, you know, we have over 500 veterinarians, scientists, researchers that are are working and trying to create new formulas and the best we can for the dogs. I mean, I know well, last time I looked, we had five board certified nutritionists working for Purina.

Karl Gunzer:

That's a pretty overwhelming number. I don't know how many years in the country, but I'm pretty sure that, you know, there's a lot of manufacturers and dog food companies out there that don't have any board certified nutritionists working for the company. So we take the science seriously, and I think that's one of the things that is exciting about Purina is it's always about what's the next thing? What's what can we create or do to help dogs and cats do better? You know, we're just always trying to improve our nutrition.

John Gordon:

That's right. Folks, for your cat lovers out there, I forget about cats sometimes, but that that's important too. Right? I mean, they're people people love their cats. Some some would say.

John Gordon:

That's important. Well, we're all sporting dog guys. Right? I mean, it's it it it's just what we love, so we just but the cats are important too, you know. Y'all do a great job with that as well.

John Gordon:

Y'all got a tremendous amount of of different formulas for them too.

Karl Gunzer:

That's right.

John Gordon:

You know, period has been around a long time. I did not realize that the company was was started, you know, in the late eighteen hundreds pretty much. So you're talking about a brand that's been around now for over a hundred and twenty five years.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. I think I think this year's a hundred and thirtieth anniversary or something like that. It's I'm within a year, one way or the other. Yeah. Pretty incredible.

John Gordon:

That is incredible. And the amount of of of pets and sporting dogs and cats and just everything that Purina has fed over the over the decades, it's in the millions. It's incredible.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. And, know, when the company started, you know, it was, you know, Ralston, you know, was started by William Danforth, and then, you know, it had been bought and sold a few times over the years, but has really always remained true to the focus of pet nutrition. You know, we used to have cereals and and formulas and things for humans, and there are a few companies were bought and sold over the years, but really it's has always since the thirties, the focus has been pet food.

John Gordon:

Exactly. Exactly. It's really one of the iconic brands. I mean, you say the word Purina, and everybody knows exactly what you're talking about. There's no mystery there that that y'all are into to the pet food business, and it's yeah.

John Gordon:

What a brand. It's been great. I got a question for you, Ray, that I think a lot of listeners would be interested in. People always ask me stuff like, okay, when you're, you know, you're looking for a new dog, a new hunting companion, hunt test dog, field trial dog, whatever, What are you really looking for in a litter of puppies? Is it the puppy themselves or you just or or is it the parents that you're really focusing on?

Ray Voigt:

The genetics, I think, are the the big part. You find you find parents or or genetics that you like. I like to have an idea of what those parents are like, so whether I've had an opportunity to see them myself or talk to people, the owners or the trainers and find out what they're like, not only from a performance standpoint, but I really like to focus on temperament and what they're like to live with. You know, I don't like those dogs, high strength dogs that are bouncing off the wall and pacing back and forth and barking as much as anybody. So I wanna know that the that both the parents and the the lineage there has has good temperaments, they're they're easy to live with and they can perform and I think so I'm gonna pick that litter based on that and then maybe an individual puppy if you go look at them, one of them catches your eye, one of them follows you around quicker or has certain little temperament traits at seven weeks or eight weeks that you that kind of you like, then I would go with that, but I don't think, you know, they can change they're gonna change a lot from eight weeks to eight years, so just because one of them wanted to retrieve a pigeon wing a little bit quicker at eight weeks doesn't mean that that's gonna be the first one to do everything, you know.

Ray Voigt:

Exactly. You know, but you might like the depending on the breed, you know, spaniel or bird dog, maybe some of the markings might catch your eye or I've heard some people in the spaniel world say they like to find one that has similar markings to the to the father. If the, you know, you have a really strong sire, they're gonna pick the one that has similar markings to to that dog. You know, obviously in the retriever world, know, black, yellow, chocolate, so you're gonna you're gonna kinda go with kinda find the color you want and then the genetics and and, you know, I have little things that I look for, you know, I like to see the ones that'll follow you around that are, you know, seem like they wanna be with you. Obviously, you want them to look healthy, you know, eyes are clear, their skin's clear, they're not, you know, too skinny when they're little puppies, you know, things like that, you know, bouncing around and but it's hard because sometimes you show up right after the eat, they're all gonna be sleeping.

Ray Voigt:

Right. You know? And there's only so many

Karl Gunzer:

your sake.

Ray Voigt:

There's only so many things you can do, so I'm gonna look for the genetics I want and the parents that have the traits that I like first and foremost.

John Gordon:

And that's what I've always told people, you just really have got to figure out what you want first. Right? If you some people some people I know like that breathing fire dog. I personally don't, but there's there's some hunters I know for sure that do. Guys are retrieving, you know, dogs, maybe a guide dog or whatever is retrieving a lot of birds over the course of a season.

John Gordon:

They want one that's, you know, that's really ripping it.

Ray Voigt:

But you also you gotta sit in a blind with them for a lot of hours too. Exactly. So, you know, those ones that are, you know, and that's not a big thing, you know, are vocal, you know, who wants to sit in a boat or a blind with a dog that's whining or barking?

Karl Gunzer:

No

Ray Voigt:

kidding. You know, so making sure, you know, that goes along with the temperament of the parents and are they vocal dogs of the, you know, all that sort of stuff. I also one more thing to add is having a reputable breeder. You know, there's so many things that people can that breeders, good breeders do with the puppies to get them socialized, to expose them to different things, to get them used to, you know, the person I got my puppy from, I mean, they're half housebroken before you get them because they're raised in the house and they're taken outside after they eat and they start to learn to go in and out and they spend time outside. They've been introduced to water, they've been introduced to feathers, you know.

Ray Voigt:

So there's a big difference between a puppy coming from a place like that and one that's just been out in a concrete kennel for seven weeks, you know. So I'd like to know a little bit of how they're being raised and that the people have done it before and, you know, that that also plays a part.

John Gordon:

Well, you've got a puppy. Am I correct?

Ray Voigt:

I guess she's not a puppy, she's three now. So, know, I'll keep calling her a puppy, but no, she's

John Gordon:

just not quite a puppy then, but, you know, you've had experience with it. And from the Purina standpoint, Carl, I know that's been a big focus for Purina over the years is is the different nutritional requirements for puppies.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. And, you know, it's really important to feed a puppy formula or an all life stage formula to a puppy. You know, as they're developing, you know, proper calcium and phosphorus ratios are important as well as high levels of, you know, EPA, DHA, and different nutrients that really help for development of eyes, brains, all that stuff, you know, they need a complete and balanced formula while they're growing.

John Gordon:

And that's important, right? I mean, you wouldn't want to feed

Karl Gunzer:

your puppy an adult dog food, correct? That's right. Exactly. Now an all life stage formula is complete and balanced for puppies and adults, so if you had like that sport thirty twenty is an adult is an all life stage, so that's fine, but like, you know, complete essentials are one of the maintenance formulas that would not be appropriate.

Ray Voigt:

And it has to be identified on the bag. So if you see if you're going to find a bag of food and it says adult on it, that is specifically formulated for dogs over the age of one, where like Carl said, the all life stages can be from, you know, weaning to to retirement or, you know, so, you know, that's important. I mean, I know I'd like to do and like with a Labrador or a Retriever, if I'm doing a puppy food, I like to do a large breed puppy versus a regular, just to help with that slow down that growth so they don't so they're they're basically their bones aren't growing faster than their ligaments.

John Gordon:

Right. And, you know, in my personal dog, he had he was growing so fast and and he had a little developed a limp and, you know, it was it was all just related to that, you know, just growth plate stuff that was just going too fast, and you so it all comes into play that, you know, that's really important. So one year, 12, that's the that's really the standard That's sort of typical. For adult and puppies.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. That's sort of the typical. Large, you know, large breeds can take a little longer to to reach full, you know, maturity and all that, but that's sort of kind of a general

John Gordon:

I've always heard age of two, right, from large breeds. That's when they're physically developed. Yep. Not very mentally developed sometimes, but it all depends on the dog, man. You know, we've all seen them.

John Gordon:

You've these little phenom dogs at a very young age who are just capable of such complex things, and then some other dogs didn't really come on until they were until they were older.

Karl Gunzer:

That's right.

John Gordon:

You know, so don't give up on a dog. That's kind of one of the things I think too, is that they they mature at different rates.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. And and one one last thing I wanna add is is, you know, it used to be the thought that you wanted, you know, a fat healthy puppy. Well, fat and healthy in a puppy are not the same. They really should be lean, especially when they're growing and and working, you know, at 16, you know, six months, all that. You don't want an overweight puppy.

Karl Gunzer:

You know, it's really hard as those, you know, joints and bones are growing and developing, carrying too much weight is not a good thing, so I think it's really important to keep puppies lean.

John Gordon:

Puppies and dogs, that's maybe one of the biggest thing I've seen over the years, and you talk I think you touched on it earlier, Carl, is that there's a lot of dogs out there that they're obese. You know? They don't need to weigh ninety five pounds. They really need to weigh seventy pounds, and they're just they're being overfed. Yeah.

Karl Gunzer:

And, you know, what's funny is you don't think of it. You think of a dog, oh, well, it's just five pounds heavy. Well, five pounds, maybe 10%, you know, and and being 10% overweight is is reasonably significant. You know what I mean? And if it's 10 pounds, well, then it's it's 20% overweight.

Karl Gunzer:

So, you know, it depends of course on the size, but it's not, you know, they don't have to be 30 to be overweight. Right.

John Gordon:

And it's from a sporting dog's perspective, it's got to be tough on their joints to be to have carry too much weight, you know, it it it's rough. Here's another question I'm gonna throw at you, Ray, that people always debate about. Male or female? Completely personal preference. Exactly.

John Gordon:

But we've all seen incredible dogs on both sides, but it's just and your experience in your career, if you just if you had to pick one, is it the male dog that you would think that I guess in the in, like, national champions and everything like that, the males have dominated. Like, this national bird dog trial, there's all it's all males.

Karl Gunzer:

Is that right?

John Gordon:

That's correct. There's not a female in in the in the bunch. I looked at the running order yesterday. Not the running order yet, but then the dogs qualified. They're all males.

John Gordon:

That'll be darned. So but there we've all seen some incredible like, my old Mike's dog, Lottie, was, man, one of the best retrievers I ever saw in my life.

Ray Voigt:

I think the national open championship for the retrievers this year was almost fifty fifty, male to female, you know. So I think you see a lot more even in the retriever world these days. I mean, that used to be the old school thinking was you needed a big tough strong male that was gonna, you know, go through cover and go in cold water and the way that the breeding has gone and the training has gone, that's just you don't have to if that's the style you like, great, but you don't have to have that to be competitive. I mean, there's a lot of small, like, Lottie, like you just mentioned, some small, you know, Baby was a dog that would train the gun in the Hall of Fame last year. She was a small petite dog and, you know, they don't have to be that big burley anymore.

Ray Voigt:

In fact, those dogs nowadays and with the length and the distances that they're having to run and the repetition, those bigger burly dogs are the ones that break tend to break down faster physically. So I mean, these dogs are putting on miles daily. I mean, they are basically endurance sprinters is what it comes down to. So a little bit of that smaller leaner build, a lot of them will last a little bit longer. So personally, I own a female, but I'm not opposed to any of it.

Ray Voigt:

I mean, I I like good dogs.

John Gordon:

Exactly. Good.

Ray Voigt:

But but male or female really is comes down to what you prefer. You know, some people just don't want a female that's gonna come into season and you live in, you know, you you have multiple dogs, it's hard to have both because then you have one female that comes in season and then you have to board it or have a place for it or in our case, like we have we live in town now and we have diapers that she has to wear when she's in season because I don't she I don't even have an outside kennel, she lives in the house twenty four seven. So, you know, there's some things that easier to have a male, you know, from that standpoint with with cycles and such, you're in the middle of duck season and your dog comes in season. What do you you know, you don't want them in water and the round of their dogs, you know.

John Gordon:

So males nuts. Same with the testing and trialing. Right? I mean, they've gotta be scratched.

Ray Voigt:

Correct. They have to be scratched. So, you know, so I know some people that prefer males for that reason. Some people like to do litters and they prefer females, you know, so they can have have litters and pass along their genetics that they like. So it really comes down to what fits your lifestyle and what you like.

John Gordon:

Yeah. Think there was a real trend when I was younger, maybe in my twenties or so, I saw a lot of really big dogs, especially on the Labrador side. You know, a guy was always talking about, man, my dog weighs a 105 pounds, and it's like, I I just and I've seen the trend go in the other direction. I've seen smaller dogs nowadays. People realize that, well, 100 pound dogs don't fit well into boats.

John Gordon:

100 pound dogs don't fit well in anywhere. So they they just really I think that that mentality has changed over the years and I think it's better for it. And I've seen some really good big dogs, but I think the trend now is going back to more of the breed standard of that size. As far as nutrition goes, there's a couple of key things that people are really concerned about, I know, and and I think good nutrition plays a huge part in it, and one of them is longevity. Am I correct about that, Carl?

John Gordon:

I mean, you extend the dog's life basically by feeding at the proper food? You know, there was a lifespan study done by Purina. I'm trying to remember

Karl Gunzer:

when that was. Right?

John Gordon:

It was the eighties, I think, or can't remember how long

Karl Gunzer:

it was.

Ray Voigt:

It's been a while.

Karl Gunzer:

But the the study basically showed that dogs that were kept leaner, you know, fed lean, they had they lived longer lives, but also lived healthier, that that delayed the onset of osteoarthritis and different joint diseases, degenerative joint diseases. So the food helps, feeding them to the right body condition helps, and just what you said, you know, twenty or thirty years ago, you know, if you looked at the average age of dogs competing at the national, I think it was around six years old, that has gradually gotten older and older now, you know, and I should say Retriever National. Now Ray, do you remember what it was recently? It was like, it's pushing seven years. I mean, and it's not uncommon to have 11 year old dogs running at the National Retriever Championship, where thirty years ago that was almost unheard of.

John Gordon:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. But that those days, seemed like once a dog hit about eight or nine, it was pretty well done. Yep.

John Gordon:

And I think that's a lot of that's been improvements in nutrition and people understanding nutrition as well.

Karl Gunzer:

And conditioning and, you know, and a little bit smaller dog thing, what you were talking about, those, you know, the really big retrievers of the, you know, eighties and nineties, that has trended the other way, and I think those dogs are are performing a lot longer.

Ray Voigt:

And we also have more we have veterinarians now that are a lot more adept at soft tissue injury, where kind of the old school thought was it has if the dog's lame, it has to be a bone or a joint and give him a Rimadyl and run them tomorrow, you know. So the sports medicine aspect of taking care of the dogs has also become much more advanced, know. So like Carl mentioned, doctor Janelle earlier, doctor Janelle Powell, she has done a ton to advance the the information that's out there for people, the preventative steps, the the warming up, the cooling down, the stretching and all things that help prevent and diagnosing soft tissue injury, ten years, fifteen years ago, people didn't really talk about. So, you know, that's also helped these dogs run a lot longer and a lot at at older ages, and just to back up on that life study, to back up one second, when you talked about the longevity, it didn't just increase it by a few weeks or a few months, it increased their life by years.

Karl Gunzer:

Yeah. I think it was one point eight years, I believe, or just about two years.

Ray Voigt:

So, you know, I mean, that's a huge difference. So when when people say, oh, well, he's hungry or he likes to eat, that's great, but do you want another couple years with your pet or do you want them to be fat because they got to eat a couple extra cups of food a couple, you

Karl Gunzer:

know, so That's a great point.

John Gordon:

That's a great point. Think about that, you know, people listening out there, think about it. You know, if you you know, you may be looking at your fat dog right now and think about the fact that you might be cutting his life short. Yeah. And that's a huge thing because we all love those dogs, you know, to pieces and manage.

John Gordon:

It's a it's a blow Yeah. When you lose one. Right? I mean, it just it it really hurts you, you know, to your core, you know, to lose one of your dogs and that's part of it. But I really think that I've seen some huge advances in the nutritional side of it and knowledge of it, and like I said, of people really understanding that this is this is the best way to have your dog around, you know, substantially longer.

John Gordon:

As far as the future, do y'all see any real trends that are coming down the line that are gonna be worked into the pet food industry that are really exciting? I think

Karl Gunzer:

a lot of a lot of the latest research is really kind of focused around the the gut microbiome, probiotics, and healthy a healthy gut in the dogs, and I think you're seeing that in human medicine, and and a lot of that's one of the great things about Purina being owned by Nestle is that we can take some of those advances that we're creating in human medicine, whether it's infant formulas or senior formulas, and we can use a lot of that same research to try and develop it for dogs. And I think, you know, I think the probiotics, the gut microbiome, a little bit of brain health, you know, there's a lot of nutritional, there's a lot of nutritional aspects to brain health, whether it's the way, you know, the dog is assimilating fats in their brain, you know, medium chain triglycerides are easily digestible in an older dog's brain and helps, you know, helps mental acuteness and all that in older dogs. So a lot of those discoveries, even things like epilepsy and other things, there's a nutritional component to treating some of those diseases, and I think that's probably a lot of where things are focused right now, you know, I'd say brain health and gut health and, and affecting those with diet.

Karl Gunzer:

That's exciting. Once again, that's gonna lead, I think,

John Gordon:

to more longevity. Right? I think that's a real goal. Yeah. And you're seeing dogs live longer and longer, pets living longer and longer all the way across the board.

John Gordon:

Hey, Ray, here's a good question for you as well. From from a training standpoint, a lot of folks out there that, you know, they've got they've got one dog, meaning they they hunt with the dog. Is it better to train more consistently? You think, like, short periods of time every day or more intense training sessions three days a week that are covering more things. What there's two schools of thought of that.

John Gordon:

I've always heard that, you know, that if you, you know, just like from training for people, is just if you if you did three rounds of boxing every single day versus seven, eight rounds of boxing three days a week, you were you were far farther ahead in the long run.

Ray Voigt:

Personally, I'd probably take the more more days and less work, you know, the the I think if you're trying to jam three or four lessons or five lessons into one one day, I don't know that they're going to what's the right word? Retain. Retain that retain as well as if, you know, they learned this lesson on Monday, this lesson on Tuesday, this lesson on Wednesday, trying to cram everything together I think, you know, and a lot of times teaching, we try to teach them kind of in theme, the things go together. So if I'm trying to reach from one end of training to the other all in one day, I don't think they're gonna retain that where I can build upon each lesson day to day. So if I saw something on Monday that they may be struggled with, you know, we're working on basic obedience and they didn't wanna sit the greatest.

Ray Voigt:

Okay. Well, guess what? I'm gonna work on that until I get that foundation down. So I'm not gonna do teach them how to sit, teach them how to heal, teach them how to come here, all those things at once, how is the dog gonna make sense of that? I want them to pick to learn one thing at a time and then then we're gonna build them all together.

Ray Voigt:

But from a teaching learning standpoint, I think they'll I think they can comprehend better learning one thing each day and also physically, you know, you you do too much and then you're gonna have you're gonna fatigue have mental and physical fatigue. So spreading that out, think personally that would be my way to do it.

John Gordon:

Yeah. And I think, you know, professional trainers working with many, many dogs over this course of time, it's really easy for a guy with one dog to overwork that dog, you know, you think about it, you're doing too much and just, you know, kinda throttle back, it makes it easier on the dog, and it's right on their body suit. You're talking about that. You could really push a dog and it just the next day, you try to take it out and do this, and it just doesn't feel like it because the dog is, you know, muscles are sore and everything else. So I think, you know, that's a really great point that really try to, you know, keep it short and simple and just build upon it and on a daily consistent basis.

Ray Voigt:

Yeah. And that's when you're gonna also, if you're working the dog when they are on fatigued muscles, that's when you're more likely to create strains or pulls in the in the different muscles because when you throw something for I mean, guys love that's what they're bred for, that's what they live for, is to retrieve. So if I had to have a dog that's a little bit sore and say, you know, hamstring or quadricep or groin muscle, and then I take a bird and I throw it out there, they're not gonna self regulate, they're gonna try to get that bird as fast as they can, and that's when they're more likely to pull pull muscle or or strain something where now we're gonna have a lot longer process to recover versus giving them a day off or doing a little bit less each day where you don't reach that muscle fatigue.

John Gordon:

Very good. Very good. That's that's that's great to know, really, I think from people training dogs at all levels. Carl, I wanna end with this because this is a big part in the pet world. Where do you think the treat fits in to a dog's nutritional makeup?

John Gordon:

And I know Purina has treats and everything else. Is it something that you should do on a regular basis? What do you Yeah. Where where where do you think?

Karl Gunzer:

Like to say everybody buy more treats, but Exactly. You know, it depends. It sort of depends on the purpose. A lot of treats are given for the person, not the dog, you know, it makes the person feel better, so they they they wanna they want to make their dog happy, you know, I mean, I think we all want a happy dog and we try and, you know, training them makes us happy and it should make them happy, you know, treats should make them happy and make us happy. I think, you know, there is a real purpose for treats and training, and so we make different treats for different reasons.

Karl Gunzer:

And I think some of the training treats and those are really helpful, especially puppies, teaching new behaviors, teaching things, sit, going to crate, you know, anything. You know, there's dogs that are only trained on treats. That's typically not, you know, these retrievers, but so I think it's just looking at the reason for the treat. Is it to to make the dog feel good, to make you feel good, or to try and teach them something? I think the important thing is not to let that treat become more than like 10% of their daily calories.

Karl Gunzer:

You know, it's important for the dog to be, or puppy, to be on a complete and balanced diet, and most treats, now some are complete and balanced, but most treats are not, so, you know, given to excess, you know, is not a good thing.

John Gordon:

That's a great point. Think you're right. It's more for the person than

Karl Gunzer:

it is

John Gordon:

for the animal.

Ray Voigt:

That's

John Gordon:

right. That makes you feel better, but, you know, I gave a little fluffy It's kinda like me. Nice little treat. Yeah. Makes them happy.

Ray Voigt:

Now the the dental treats are I've found we've started I've started using them personally, and I mean, they work really well to dog

Karl Gunzer:

Oh, your tooth cleaner?

Ray Voigt:

Yeah. I mean and they have you didn't smell my breath on the way, you know, so that does serve a purpose and I I'd have to I don't have the reading in front of me like how often or how many or whatever, but, you know, they play a part and so many people ignore their dog's dental health. That's that's great point.

John Gordon:

Right? That, yeah, they don't really pay attention to the dog's teeth until, right, there's an issue. And then it's very expensive to correct.

Ray Voigt:

So And a lot of their there's a lot involved with dental health and their just their overall well-being too, and their and the way they I mean, the bacteria you can get bacteria in the bloodstream, you can cause infection, you I mean, you just eat nothing will make a dog feel down quicker than having something wrong in their mouth.

John Gordon:

Especially from a retriever standpoint. Right? That's that's what their bread and butter is is their mouth health and and how they can pick up objects and bring them back to you. So that's a that's a great point, the dental health. Man, this this has been fantastic.

John Gordon:

You know? Y'all, I mean, I I've learned a lot, I hope the listeners have learned a lot about, you know, not only the the different sporting dog events, but sporting dog nutrition. I really thank y'all for being here on the DU podcast.

Karl Gunzer:

It's been great, John. It's fun fun catching up with you and enjoyed it.

John Gordon:

And thanks a lot to Perina too as well for being a, you know, a a partner of Ducks Unlimited for so long. Y'all y'all have been, you know, fantastic, really supporting our mission and being real just, you know, a part of what we do. Well, that's a

Karl Gunzer:

great organization, and we're we're proud of our partnership for, I think, the last nine years now.

John Gordon:

That's right. It's it's it's it's been fantastic, and we really appreciate everything y'all do for us. Well, thanks everybody for once again for listening to the Ducks Unlimited podcast and supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.

VO:

Thank you for listening to the DU podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the show and visit ducks.org/dupodcast. Opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect those of Ducks Unlimited. Until next time, stay tuned to the Ducks.